the debate that doesn't belong in best 20minute+ songs

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  • "I don't mind creation stories presented as mythology, but to suggest that there is any debate that the Earth is 4.54 billion years old is pure shit"
    Prof Brian Cox
    And so it begins, I have a very firm belief that religions have only provided answers to our lack of education and understanding, in the past, and engaged in aggressive 'product placement' to ensure control and loyalty of a population.
    The bible makes the claim that "god made the heavens and the earth, and they were perfect". But that's a load of nonsense, we now know that the universe is continuing to expand (big bang, shockwave and so on) we have known for the last couple of centuries, that the earths surface is in a state of flux, with plates continuing to move, volcanoes still erupt and change the aurface, so neither of those is 'perfect', which for me, is where the whole argument for the daft suggestion of an all powerful god begins to fall apart.

    "science, my boy, is made up of mistakes, but they are mistakes that is is useful to make, because they lead, little by little, to the truth"
    Jules Verne
    so pass me a shot, and make it a double
    I'm a whole lot of trouble and I don't do subtle.

    Dizzee Rascal
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    the real Oggy
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  • Without trying to become too contentious, and to help with balancing the argument, I feel that we need to look at both sides of this problem “religion”.
    It not always good just to hear one person’s religion and not be able to put the other side, but here goes.
    You have to be careful, as there are a multitude of people who will believe in a god of some description. People take a great comfort in believing that there is something else after death, be it heaven, hell, reincarnation, Nirvana, or whatever their belief system works with, and there maybe belief that there is nothing after death, just a cold hole, or a fiery furnace, but the important thing is that is their personal belief, and as such should be kept personal.
    Christians are sometime mocked or insulted if they air their views in a public arena, you know the things, religious nutters, bible bashers, etc. etc ., what has to be balanced is that not all Christians are nutters, who force their diatribe down people’s throats, yes there are some (and usually vocal) people who do, and that's true in most of society, but what is to be remembered is that they are in minority, and not representative of most Christians or any persons of faith. In the same way, that some men are murderers, but not ALL men are murderers, is just a small percentage, but not all are judged in the same way when it comes to the “religion”
    That being said it is wrong that a topic of anyone’s religious belief is better than another’s, and to use this forum as their own personal soapbox is not fair to other users, as there are no doubt those who agree with the option expressed, and there are certainly those who don’t, it’s a matter of person preference, and this belief are deep set and extremely personal.
    On a slightly different topic I notice that there is a new TV series starting on Channel 5 in December titled “the Bible”, now interestingly is that The British Humanist Association have agreed to work with the Damasis Trust (a Christian Organization) to encourage public conversations across the country between Christians and Atheists/Agnostics - to take place in December, coinciding with the build-up to the broadcast. Now I applaud this project as it has the potential to bring together two sides of the debate, to try and find a common ground, rather than just insulting or debasing the others option.
    In summing up, it is unfair to take away any persons hope, even if you do not share their perspective, sometimes that hope is all they have, that their soul will live on. I will leave you with two things, this tread should be closed down, so that people’s beliefs on both sides can be honoured, and a little quote I heard today. “If you believe in God, and it turns out there is no God, there is no harm, no foul, but if you don’t believe in God and there is one well…………….you’re screwed” Denny Crane.
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    mozo
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  • mozo wrote:Without trying to become too contentious, and to help with balancing the argument, I feel that we need to look at both sides of this problem “religion”.
    It not always good just to hear one person’s religion and not be able to put the other side, but here goes.
    You have to be careful, as there are a multitude of people who will believe in a god of some description. People take a great comfort in believing that there is something else after death, be it heaven, hell, reincarnation, Nirvana, or whatever their belief system works with, and there maybe belief that there is nothing after death, just a cold hole, or a fiery furnace, but the important thing is that is their personal belief, and as such should be kept personal.
    Christians are sometime mocked or insulted if they air their views in a public arena, you know the things, religious nutters, bible bashers, etc. etc ., what has to be balanced is that not all Christians are nutters, who force their diatribe down people’s throats, yes there are some (and usually vocal) people who do, and that's true in most of society, but what is to be remembered is that they are in minority, and not representative of most Christians or any persons of faith. In the same way, that some men are murderers, but not ALL men are murderers, is just a small percentage, but not all are judged in the same way when it comes to the “religion”
    That being said it is wrong that a topic of anyone’s religious belief is better than another’s, and to use this forum as their own personal soapbox is not fair to other users, as there are no doubt those who agree with the option expressed, and there are certainly those who don’t, it’s a matter of person preference, and this belief are deep set and extremely personal.
    On a slightly different topic I notice that there is a new TV series starting on Channel 5 in December titled “the Bible”, now interestingly is that The British Humanist Association have agreed to work with the Damasis Trust (a Christian Organization) to encourage public conversations across the country between Christians and Atheists/Agnostics - to take place in December, coinciding with the build-up to the broadcast. Now I applaud this project as it has the potential to bring together two sides of the debate, to try and find a common ground, rather than just insulting or debasing the others option.
    In summing up, it is unfair to take away any persons hope, even if you do not share their perspective, sometimes that hope is all they have, that their soul will live on. I will leave you with two things, this tread should be closed down, so that people’s beliefs on both sides can be honoured, and a little quote I heard today. “If you believe in God, and it turns out there is no God, there is no harm, no foul, but if you don’t believe in God and there is one well…………….you’re screwed” Denny Crane.


    I feel it's probably pretty unlikely that anyone will come on here and declare their religious beliefs if they are strong believers, purely out of expectation to be shot down in flames. Maybe I'm wrong (anybody?). But the thread shouldn't be closed, this is a forum where debate is the game, so why stop a debate if no-one is being personally attacked?

    As for me, well I don't believe in God, and nothing will change that, but I understand why so many cling to the belief that something/someone is out there at the end. In some ways I am jealous of them, for what do those of us who do not believe look to when our final days come around?
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  • How do I put this, I'm a believer, I have a strong faith, and I do believe in a strong debait.
    In the public domain no ones belief should outweigh another, it's the whole politics and religion thing, it's at best uncomfortable and at worse divisive.
    Freedom of belief, political, or personal standing should paramount, but the whole I am right and you are wrong should be left at the other side of the keyboard.
    With all this what I believe, and what I do within my church life, I would hate to be called "religious" as in deed, if you look at the life of Jesus, he fought (and some may say ultimately lost) against the religious people of the time.
    Like many people of faith, I believe in building up those around me, not tearing them down, there are many great causes that have been fought, for the betterment of all mankind, that have been fought peacefully by men and women of strong conviction.
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    mozo
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  • Well put Mozo. I have to admit that I hadn't realised your position from your previous post :roll: so thanks for joining the dots (for me).

    I have no problem with anyone else's beliefs. It's a bit like musical tastes I guess, wouldn't it be boring if we all had the same views :)

    Which brings us neatly round to where we came in (from?) - how do you like the music of Mr. Morse? As I said in the "other" thread, I find it uplifting on a musical and spiritual level, despite my lack of belief in God. Love his voice too!
    essexboyinwales
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  • Yes that true Esexboyinwales, if we were all of the same option that would be very boring, and I think a lot of what peoples see the church as, is well described the link below, Steve Taylor is a Christian artist who was very active in the eighties and nineties. the whole conforming thing and acting as clones, he did upset the more conservative church establishment, especially this, and his satirical song, "I blew up the clinic real good" about anti abortion nutters.


    Back to Mr Morse, yes I do like his work, and it not just for the lyrics, I first was introduced to him just before The Whirlwind come out and the was a few discussion on here about it, and I followed Slow Dancers recommendation to buy the album, which I loved so I then got Neal's Lifeline album, which surprised me in it's Spiritual overtones. I have seen Transatlantic once, and have booked to go next year. I Have met Neal at a church in Cambridge, when he did a church tour at the beginning of 2012. He is a really nice and easy to talk too guy
    http://www.myspace.com/everybodyknowsadave

    Am I the same when I'm not here?
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